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You might be onto something there Sopy. Something has gone seriously wrong in Mega-Land and it aint just thinking about having MD speak at one of their conferences. It is like embezzlers working around money. Are they the ones that keep praying for their leaders to be decent people who dont crave power and position? Bah, hit reply to soon. your post is so right LT, the whole post, and it really needs to be said again and again. The Rev. In February of 2007, Mark Driscoll preached a sermon that included raising funds for Agathos. He. My point with Che is to draw a parallel. One of the men had been to a conference in Seattle and was just wowed by his missional approach. In case this was not a rhetorical question, the correct answer is entertainment. Are you not reporting instant healing to keep the confirmed miracle count up? . We live in a youtube world where fun and funny trump all. He dropped the moral bar for both pulpit and pew that has far reaching consequences on the way we do church. ( As with the dituation with John Mark mentioned in Acts, and the conflict with Peter mentioned in Galatians. I didnt feel pressured. It takes at least 6 months before you start seeing things clearly. Wonder what else is in the Acts29 playbook that we havent seen yet! How can they do that? Did Paul hire a company to buy his books and get them on the bestseller list? This has taken a toll on me and my family, as well as those close to me, the former senior pastor wrote in a letter posted on the ROCs website. http://www.smh.com.au/national/hillsong-conference-shows-interview-with-controversial-us-pastor-mark-driscoll-20150630-gi1y6d.html, As a follow-up (Sydney Morning Herald 1 July 2015), Hillsong conference shows interview with controversial US Pastor, Mark Driscoll. The reason why I answered like that is because most of this stuff goes on because the pew sitters are not actively involved in the church operatons and are not demanding openess and transparancy of staff and leaders. i have very little church experience so i dont think i am qualified to even speak to these things though. This has nothing to do with the recent downfall of Mark and demise of Mars Hill. He made a lucrative living and lived what I would call a lavish lifestyle (higher standard of living than every single person in my church, for example), and he did it all with Jesus. These churches are both responsible for vetting their speakers, and they utterly failed on this one. He essentially called the Driscoll victims liars and persecutors. And did he threaten to punch Pastor Lindell in the nose and throw him under the bus if he wasnt given the gig? Of course, we have yet to determine whether there has been a real change in Mark Driscoll's life. Yes, I am familiar with Che and what he represents. Maybe Driscoll can do commercials like John McEnroe, i am against that sort of ministry, that sort of authority over people, that sort of famousness, that sort of using the gospel of Jesus to make money and become well known in christan circles, that sort of using Jesus name for any personal gain, that sort of i have special insight from God and heres how much you have to pay for it in my new book, that sort of quit saying i have to be asking to be forgiven if i hurt people that sort of we are all brethren but i am alpha brethren i dont hold unforgiveness toward mark driscoll but i am not for anyone anywhere doing that sort of ministry. excerpts from rob smiths post :https://musingsfromunderthebus.wordpress.com/2015/02/13/mars-hill-church-true-religion-does-not-abandon-orphans-and-widows-in-their-distress/. In your mega travels Lydia, is this homogenization of bad practices the norm? I also find him vulgar and misogynistic, so I dont see him as ever having been qualified to start with. This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel. For mr. driscoll to change the whole meaning of this into the sponge was probably really used as toilet paper because he did some study in some far away country is to bring doubt to Gods prophecies and the fulfilment of them. Did Paul plagiarize? Those ones arent even on the path. There are now more single adults in the U.S.A. than married couples, but churches (even the mega ones) keep going after the married folks. What I dont get is why Hillsong and Assemblies of God (James River Church), who have extremely different views on women in the church would even consider someone like Mark Driscoll as a special speaker. The name Che is a nickname, short for pig (chancho), for a reason. Tom Lane already draws a massive six figure salary yet it is never enough. My old church Gateway has atmosphere teams in services to emotionally manipulate members and visitors. I wish he would try to get a corporate communications job or something though. I never saw it tried in a church setting, but something like that was tried where I worked. any way i am still wrestling with my view of my world and churches and like you mentioned, gun shy when i go into a new church. Van, I agree with Deb. It is anguish because i love them, and see the pain of all three of them. There is no painting a happy face on Driscoll. Now the floodgates will open wide now that his massive deception becomes public knowledge in Australia and the UK. Covenants, ruling elders, etc. James River Church Online - James River TV where is God in all this? James River Church responds to complaints about crowded, unmasked - KY3 Returning so soon to the limelight reinforces the idea that it really is all about Mark. one person, after 6 months finally started to say why they didnt attend gateway anymore and it made me wonder why people dont warn others. He wants to release you from that burden and bondage, they haven't asked for forgiveness? It is definitely not where all leadership and vision is deferred to one man, and it is definitely not authoritarian. I think it is perfectly ok to say some people are toxic and avoid them for safety and mental health reasons. Of course he gave all kinds of excuses, Im young, brash, etc. But as he aged, and he spoke more and more, nothing changed, it got more vulgar, more illicit language, more rude, more obnoxious. And these leaders present themselves as one thing but are deceiving people the entire time. Did that get anywhere close to answering your question? If the denominational system is rejected on doctrinal grounds, that only leaves the congregation. There could be some better teaching on this but too many appear to receive their teaching from celebrity pastors who then take advantage of them. Now the shock will be realizing how far theyve strayed from those virtues. None of them see anything wrong with this. They want their congregations and the world at large to believe that there are no amount of misdeeds that a pastor can perform, no matter how egregious, that means they shouldnt be instantly forgiven and returned to the pulpit ASAP. Gateway also directly lifted the slogan every number has a name, every name has a story.. spiel verbatim from Perry Nobles NewSpring to try to distract from the reality that every member is seen as a giving unit number (no attribution to Perry, of course). The James River Church Joplin Campus, located at 1850 S Maiden Ln, Joplin, MO 64801 now has a permanent location! Working at James River Church: 40 Reviews - Indeed Youre not trying hard enough! Im not invested in liking or disliking Che so I truly welcome your comments. His messages change in content, but not in root meaning. And then they wonder that people not in their bubble have very little understanding for their version of religion and cry persecution. Your comment about magic words reminded me of Simon the Magician in Acts who was so popular and had all kinds of attention because of his magic performances. I wouldnt want to walk in his shoes and succumb to the large amount of pride he exhibits, what an empty way to live. And Ive certainly heard many tales of people who were awful people moving onto ministry later on in life. If a pastor makes a statement denying allegations, its a lie. Just like Jerry Springer would invite the Duggers on his show after the scandal? My Comment was Deleted I began to see him as a marketing expert, who was producing what the young Reformed, technology driven market would respond to, and then marketing it in excellent ways. Also, I received another great message from one of our Australia graduates thought this would bless you too But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. And I saw it. this discussion you make today determines your destiny, God wants you to forgive. https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2015/06/12/how-to-respond-to-a-faith-crisis-establishing-and-building-trust/. Sincerely want to know what the alternative is. So quick question if anyone wants to take a whack at it. Missouri has not limited attendance at houses of worship but has advised social distancing. forgiveness means its paid in full. Pews are in the old megas. James River Church is one of the largest Assemblies of God churches in the United States. 15 Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts concerning the prophets; Behold, I will feed them with wormwood, and make them drink the water of gall: for from the prophets of Jerusalem is profaneness gone forth into all the land. years ago when non denoms were pentecostal and full gospelit seemed they were trying to get back to the Jesus of the bible, the Living Jesus. (the homes), just a few helpful links re: hillsong lol, http://www.news.com.au/national/hillsong-church-linked-to-abuse-claims/story-e6frfkp9-1111115815321. Youd think theyd feel a sense of civic duty there. Unfortunately I dont see loose associations of Christ followers functioning in my locale but I continually find more dones, those done with institutional church. @ sam: I think Christians make a huge mistake when looking at patterns of spiritual abuse, deception and tyranny as whether or not they are criminal according to our laws. As the one did previously now the other is going thru the hoops of treatment and being checked on by outside agencies because being around the child is worth it. I strongly recommend the brief article by Jon Zens at Searching Together entitled Going to the Root Mark Driscoll and the Celebrity System. Im not saying that I don't believe anyone, I really just want to learn the other side of this argument. There was a box for Guest Services. Your California Privacy Rights / Privacy Policy. As some are aware, the result of me pleading for a fair trial and arguing for due deliberation when changing bylaws was that Mark Driscoll, in an abusive and vile manner, threatened to destroy me and my ministry. (if you heard anything on the internet its not true, mark scrubbed his site already so if its on the internet a bunch of liars wrote it) we dont want to shoot the wounded. With this much covidiocy in the country, we are proving ourselves to be the dumbest nation on earth. All 6,115 words of it. If he is serious about ministry then he needs to stay away from those circumstances which enable him to get into trouble-money, power and the pulpit. until he apologizes to the elders and church members he hurt so badly i dont think there will be a true repentance that God can use. I asked people who were about as famous (if that is what you call it) as him what they thought. They knew exactly what they were buying. I could not exactly put my finger on what was wrong. I have heard Driscoll in person.. LT wrote: Driscoll, IMHO, is completely unsuited for any position of authority. Thanks for your help Numo! Couldn't agree more! However, with such a massive back door spanning 15 years, I still think more exiles should be speaking up for the good of the current and future naives. The only two ways that I can think of for having said benchmarks, assuming by leadership you mean pastor(s) and not just chairman of some committee, is either having a system with central authority with established criteria which must be met prior to ordination and some written policies which are grounds for dismissal in certain conditions, That would be a denominational hierarchical system with designated people with authority and with something in writing, like an official book of how we do it. Or else to have a savvy and informed and mature congregation who would agree with and co-operate with each other on what was necessary and what needed done and which would have the actual power (backing of the people) to get it done. My point with Che is to draw a parallel. He sought out those that God sent Him to minister to in remote places away from crowds. If a pastor says anything positive about another pastor, they have something to hide. Do any of you who oppose Driscoll preaching or running a church again, is there a way he could ever get forgiveness from yall to do that sort of ministry again? You would think that over a decade of Manly Man, sexist, dude-bro, preachers that people have had enough, the novelty has worn off, and theyre ready to get real about Church and the faith again? The question may even be wrong, maybe it isnt what is the church but who is. then mark goes on to teach us that we must forgive even if the person never admits wrong or says I am sorry: vengance is where you make someone pay. Thanks for the link i want to read more of the writers work. now i am going to see if i can stand to listen to the whole mark speaks video. )(mark is apparently not impressed with peter baptizing 3,000 followers in one day cause peter isnt able to be made into a complementarian I guess), interestingly mark points out how stephen handled it but not how mark handled slight persecution which was actually not persecution but truth leveled against him) I noted in my comments on the petition that Driscoll still hasnt repented before all and specifically to the people whose lives he damaged, such as former Mars Hill elder/attorney Paul Petry, a godly, decent man. Very simple. The only two ways that I can think of for having said benchmarks, assuming by leadership you mean pastor(s) and not just chairman of some committee, is either having a system with central authority with established criteria which must be met prior to ordination and some written policies which are grounds for dismissal in certain conditions, That would be a denominational hierarchical system with designated people with authority and with something in writing, like an official book of how we do it. Or else to have a savvy and informed and mature congregation who would agree with and co-operate with each other on what was necessary and what needed done and which would have the actual power (backing of the people) to get it done. Let's see. Sam, I sincerely hope that nothing Ive written ever makes you rethink your relationship with God. Joplin Campus - Joplin, MO - James River Church Online But I am surprised he delivered his message from on high the pulpit. I began to see him as a marketing expert, who was producing what the young Reformed, technology driven market would respond to, and then marketing it in excellent ways. I also have recently spoken to another ministry leader involved in orphan care in Africa. Sometimes the writers have an agenda, at others, there is more of an assumption of knowledge that the original readers/hearers possessed that we dont.